Curse

Kiriak of Sparta · Nov 09, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

I've been seeing a lot of VIM heal monk lately..i wonder which is the best,currently im using MO/ME..

Patrograd · Nov 09, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

The VIM monk is a specialised build used for healing in trapper teams. it works pretty well too, nice energy and health regen, but you are really dependant upon the other side having alot of conditions on them at the time you cast VIM.

not sure if VIM has a use beyond trapping teams though

Manfred · Nov 10, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I find it ironic that "proper capitalization" was improperly capitalized.
VIM also has uses with a coordinated tainted flesh necro, so you reap the disease.

Yichi · Nov 10, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Given the right situation, the VIM healer will be a better energy management monk due to the conditions and the instant health/energy boost from VIm and it has a decent recharge so spamming healing spells are not a problem. the problem with a good vim build is that it does rely on conditions for the other team. Where as the standard Mo/Me doesnt. with the right skills such as energy tap, inspired hex, drain enchants, channeling, etc... you can manage your energy almost as efficently and doesnt rely on conditions.

For my personal use I normally run mo/me although thinking of switching to mo/n as i have a good build for it. However if we do run any group that has good conditions, ill bring a VIM healer over the mo/me

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 10, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38

In the metagame vs. a team that's prepared, ViM monks don't got it good.

You have to be within killing distance for ViM to have any real effect. What's good about it is that as an elite, though tactics affects it's hp healing, it doesn't affect its energy input, so you can have 0 tactics and have a very effective energy manager right there.

But again, you're within range for the entire enemy team to put you into the dirt. What's worse, if the enemy team has a martyr monk, you're in for a LOT of trouble...

I'm all for a Mo/Me in terms of energy efficiency. No other class in the game can top the inspiration line of magic for energy management.

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 10, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

*cough* offering of blood *cough*

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 10, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

*cough* offering of blood *cough*

"Scourge Sacrifice" *cough*

A monk losing hp to gain energy in the middle of a fight is in more danger than one just taking energy from a foe and doubling it for his/her purposes...

Dzan · Nov 10, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

People play Scourge Sacrifice in the Tombs? I can't say I've ever seen it.

qwe4rty · Nov 10, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

"Scourge Sacrifice" *cough*

A monk losing hp to gain energy in the middle of a fight is in more danger than one just taking energy from a foe and doubling it for his/her purposes...

Theoretically, that would be true. However, I've never seen Scourge Sacrifice being used, EVER. Also, with the recent nerf to energy tap/drain , etc. You have to give some big reasons why I should use them over OOB.

Energy Tap:5 Energy, 3 Second cast time, 30 Second Cooldown: target foe loes 4...6 [7] Energy. You gain 2 points of energy for each point lost.

OOB: 5 Energy, 1/4 second cast time, 15 Second Cooldown: You gain 8...18 [21] Energy.

With Energy tap, even if you have 12 inspiration, you will gain maybe 12 energy? Every 30 seconds?

W/ OOB at 10 blood, you gain 11 every 15 seconds. More if blood is 12

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 10, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

A monk losing hp to gain energy in the middle of a fight is in more danger than one just taking energy from a foe and doubling it for his/her purposes...

A monk losing a 10th of its HP ANYWHERE is better than using energy stealing spells, plus have to be in harms way. plus Enfeeble Blood kicks that ass if there "in a fight" with melee's that is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

W/ OOB at 10 blood, you gain 11 every 15 seconds. More if blood is 12

Faster if QZ is up.

rii · Nov 10, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Theoretically, that would be true. However, I've never seen Scourge Sacrifice being used, EVER. Also, with the recent nerf to energy tap/drain , etc. You have to give some big reasons why I should use them over OOB.

Energy Tap:5 Energy, 3 Second cast time, 30 Second Cooldown: target foe loes 4...6 [7] Energy. You gain 2 points of energy for each point lost.

OOB: 5 Energy, 1/4 second cast time, 15 Second Cooldown: You gain 8...18 [21] Energy.

With Energy tap, even if you have 12 inspiration, you will gain maybe 12 energy? Every 30 seconds?

W/ OOB at 10 blood, you gain 11 every 15 seconds. More if blood is 12

Try looking at some other inspiration skills, and youll find they net you much more than oob. The only advantage oob is that its good for builds that dont have much time for energy management. If you want the works though, go inspiration.

jesh · Nov 10, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I don't know why people can't get it into their tiny heads that inspiration is just better. I'm going to copy and paste things now and hope people are literate on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

What Mantra of recall are you talking about? Because the one I'm talking about gives ~23e. at 10 inspiration, meaning a net 13e. boost every 21s for 1.86 pips of energy. It also combines terribly with +%enchant mods, requires a 10e. initial cost, and it gives you the boost 20+s. later, which is just unacceptable. You can't predict 20s. in advance when you'll need the energy boost, and you certainly don't want a enchant strip to give you back that 23 energy before you have the room for it. So you run contemplation, which ends up giving you a total of 8e every 21s.

Compare to OoB; At 10 blood, a net 11e. boost every 15.25s for 2.16 pips of energy. That first sentence alone puts OoB ahead of mantra.
Then you factor in OoB's initial cost of only 5e, the fact that you get the boost instantly, in 0.25s, and OoB just flat out wins. Even with inspired hex, OoB will still be ahead, and it only takes 1 slot.

Conclusion? When you're running an energy management elite, you run OoB, unless you have 3 empty slots with nothing to fill them, in which case you go mesmer and stack up on those inspiration skills. I've never had a problem with filling in monk skill slots (quite the opposite, in fact), so I usually go with OoB.

edit: about the health loss, it just takes a little time to figure out when to use it and when not to use it. If you're getting attack, don't use it...if you're not, use it. 40something damage means nothing when you're not being targetted. Heck, if you are being targetted, I don't think you're gonna spend a couple of seconds looking for a target to e-drain or drain enchant and doing so.

Oob @ 10 blood = 16 energy at the cost of 5, 11 net energy, every 15 seconds. This comes out to .7333 energy per second.

Mantra of Recall @ 10 inspiration = 23 energy at the cost of 10, 13 net energy, every 20 seconds. This comes out to .65 energy per second.

Seems pretty obvious which one is better, right? Well OoB sacrifices hp.. and the mantra has a higher cost up front, and you have to wait for it. Now think about this: You're using inpiration. Unlike blood, you get channeling, inspired hex, drain enchant, power leak, god knows what else. I usually only take inspired hex. Now let's add that to the mix.

Inspired Hex @ 10 inspiration = 11 energy at the cost of 5, 6 net energy, ever 20 seconds. This comes out to .3 energy per second. Now add that to Mantra of Recall. You get .95 energy per second, and hex removal on top.

I realize that not every one can just pick up inspiration and be effective with it, because it does take some getting used to. Saying that an elite is ineffective when it isn't, however, is another matter. Going mesmer secondary also gives you hex breaker. You do your thing, and I'll do mine.

-about the 20 second comment- That's about as smart as saying, "OMG OoB is a pos! You can never tell 15 seconds in advance when you'll need it! It might be recharging!"

Give me a break. 5 seconds more isn't a million times harder to predict. If you're getting your enchants broken all the time, then just cast when you need the energy, simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Oh yea, forgot that Melandru's Resilience can work pretty well on protector too.
Can get 10 energy pips easy enough.

Don't know why people are looking forward for the skills like - energy drain, energy steal in the first place... Maybe because it's the most primitive way (means that it is easy to understand and there is nothing original in it) to gain energy?
No offense hehe

That's pretty much it, OoB is nice because you just hit it, and it's energy, right then, right there. This is more useful to the average guildwars player, since it requires little thought. For the rest of us that can pay attention to the battlefield, and our own resources, there's inspiration.

I don't want to hear any more of this, "omg nub blood is so much beter" crap.

Almighty Zi · Nov 10, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Mantra of recall works well if you are using contemplation of purity in your build. Mantra of recall is an enchantment, therefore, when you use contemplation it gets removed and you get the energy as well as removing one hex and condition and getting healed for 70 odd HP.

I keep meaning to try mantra of recall with holy veil and contemplation of purity. With holy veil and mantra of recall up, when you use contemplation you remove 3 hexes, 2 conditions, are healed for 140+ HP and get your 20+ energy also. Not bad, but only fully effective in certain circumstances and timing would be crucial. This combination of skills may be too unwieldly to be that useful but I'd still like to see how they work together.

jesh · Nov 10, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I used it when I was still getting used to inspiration, but contemplation is off my bar now. I can think 20 seconds ahead, and have inspired hex already. It's okay, but not neccessary, if you ask me. Unless you're doing pvp, I think you'll find that those skills in combination are overkill, and your energy will suffer needlessly.

Patrograd · Nov 10, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Ah the old monk energy management debate again

Its clearly, judgin by the heat of the debate that this causes, a matter of personal playstyle.

for example, for me, there are certain situations and builds in which i can get away with no energy management at all beyond my own skill in picking when to heal and what skills to use. takes alot of practise though, and not for the beginner.

Then there is OOB. Now I like OOB, nice and dependable, but its an elite, and thats got to hurt, as there are so many good monk elites it seems a real shame to waste one on energy management. Still, if i was in a build that used QZ I'd have little choice I guess.

Then there is VIM, again a highly specialised skill, but in the right team unbeatable.

Then you have Melandru's resilience, a kind of exact opposite to VIM. Again, I have used this and its Ok, especially in tombs

For most situations though i think you're going to be hard pressed to beat channeling and inspired hex. with clever positioning channeling yeilds massive energy. People say you shouldnt be near enemy mobs as a monk, but i find it makes no difference. Against a good team they will leave you alone as they follow their target pattern, and against a poor team, well, you dont really need to worry. At the end of the day if you're the target then you're the target, whether you are stood next to them or on the other side of the map. I cant see a good team switching from their priority target to take down a monk 'just because he's nearby'. Using a skill like spellbreaker is much more likely to make you the target ;-)

Sarus · Nov 10, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

That's pretty much it, OoB is nice because you just hit it, and it's energy, right then, right there. This is more useful to the average guildwars player, since it requires little thought. For the rest of us that can pay attention to the battlefield, and our own resources, there's inspiration.

We use OoB on our monks and I promise you we know how to pay attention to the battlefield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

-about the 20 second comment- That's about as smart as saying, "OMG OoB is a pos! You can never tell 15 seconds in advance when you'll need it! It might be recharging!"

Give me a break. 5 seconds more isn't a million times harder to predict. If you're getting your enchants broken all the time, then just cast when you need the energy, simple.

I don't think you understand the difference between having to cast a skill and waiting 20 seconds for the effect, and having a 15 second cooldown and being able to use the skill when you need it. They are two very different things. You pretty much have to cast recall ahead of when you think you will need the energy. What if someone is getting spiked out NOW? What if you get the mantra removed when you're at full energy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

You're using inpiration. Unlike blood, you get channeling, inspired hex, drain enchant, power leak, god knows what else.

Here's what you get: inspired hex, channeling, drain enchant, power drain, energy drain, energy tap, leech signet.

People tend to forget that the mesmer skills are all conditional energy management. You will NEVER get the full amount of energy out of them. If the opposing team isn't using hexes or enchants you're hosed. Not only that but you're taking up 3-4 skill slots with energy management. Now you can argue that inspired is hex removal so it serves two purposes but what if you wanted to run remove hex or purge signet instead?

A mesmer secondary can be as efficient as OoB but only on certain types of monks and only if you can give up 3-4 skill slots for energy management skills. Although /mes used to be the ultimate monk for e-drain, ever since the patch it is far less appealing.

qwe4rty · Nov 10, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I don't know why people can't get it into their tiny heads that inspiration is just better. I'm going to copy and paste things now and hope people are literate on this forum.

It is all really situational. It depends on the size of arena Team Vs GvG/Tombs, and the type of monk you are bringing.

In my 4v4 monk prot/boon, I use OoB and Balth Spirit. I have NO energy problems at all. None, and thats with like a 43 energy base I think.

If you have room for 3 energy managements, sure, go ahead, bring Inspiration. If you don't, bring OoB.

Schorny · Nov 10, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Nowadays I use OoB if I can afford the elite slot, Me otherwise.

Inspiration is the best non elite Energy Management you can get - and if you need Spellbreaker, martyr, etc. you want Inspiration as yoru energy management.

But if you can, use OoB - because it is superior.

Ensign · Nov 10, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I've tried Mantra of Recall on several different characters, and while it isn't *bad*, and actually had some nice things going for it, I wasn't terribly impressed.

It's easily the most rigid energy management skill in the game. You can't use an enchanting part with it, which is annoying, and you absolutely need to recast the skill as soon as it expires. It's actually easier to manage than conventional energy management in a vacuum (you gain 20+ energy, then spend 10, instead of spending 5-10 to gain another 15-20), since you should always have the energy to recast it. That makes it a bit stronger at low energy, but weaker at high energy since you'll waste a lot more often. Once you get off that clock, though, it gets ugly. In particular if you find yourself in energy hell, the Mantra will bury you, not help you get out of it. If energy is tight having to spend 10 on an effect that won't go off for another 20 seconds is absolute hell. But if you don't do it you're basically buried forever.

That makes the Mantra a lot more swingy than I'd like for an energy management skill, when things are going great the skill is acceptable or even great, but if things get ugly the skill starts to stink. I don't find that encouraging since I'm usually taking energy management skills to smooth out my energy.

It has rather poor synergy with other game mechanics as well - for instance, a fast recharge on the skill does absolutely nothing. I don't really like how it locks you into a cycle that if broken makes a mess of things. It's just too inflexible to make me really like it.

Which isn't to say that the skill is bad, it's just kinda blah and, in my experience, not worth all the trouble unless you can really abuse the odd properties of the skill (Comtemplation being one of them, and it's mildly interesting as a cover enchantment in certain parts of the PvE game).

Usually I look to Inspiration if I want to use a non-energy management elite, as I don't think either of the Inspiration elites (Keystone Signet doesn't exist) are up to par. Channeling is great in arena or on certain tombs maps, or perhaps PvE if you want to play that way. In GvG or on most 1v1 tombs maps the skill ranges from poor to a waste of a slot. It forces you to play a certain way with your Monks and I don't care for that.

Power Drain is great when you can use it reliably, but I don't think that's all too common for a Monk. Sure there are some characters that just feed the Power Drains, but in general they're a bit unwieldly for a character that needs to focus on defense. The other issues with interrupts is that their reliability goes down with the more you have, and Monks are generally in the worst position to hit interrupts reliably. Missing with a Power Drain when playing a Monk hurts, and it happens a lot more than I'd like if there are a decent number of interrupts on your offensive characters.

Drain Enchantment is great and reliable, I think it's a PvP staple for anyone running Inspiration - at the very least, just about every team has a prot monk that'll throw around stuff for you to eat. Inspired Hex, not so much. It's decent energy when they have reliable hexes, but my complaint there is how little the skill actually does. Sure, there are bad builds that have a couple hexes for Inspired to deal with, but the good builds either make the slot dead, or throw out so much junk that an Inspired really doesn't do much besides pull off a Conjure or Parasitic or something. So Inspired Hex is really a dead skill more often than I'd like, and even when it is active it's really just a pip...it's decent if you have the slot but I wouldn't consider it hex removal.

Drain Enchant plus either Channeling or Power Drain is a decent use of 9-10 attribute levels, in my experience, but that can't touch a good energy elite, and since the gutting of Energy Drain that basically means OoB. Take that for what you will.

Peace,
-CxE

twicky_kid · Nov 10, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Still no one metions THE most effecient energy gain spell....Blessed Sig. *Sigh* one day people will learn. An easy 15-24 energy gain every 12 seconds (recharge + casting time) is much better than any option out there and doesn't rely on 2nd class.